I keep reading jokes and text about the metal arm being removable. This bothers me for a variety of reasons. The way that he is able to use the arm in CA: WS is, frankly, amazing. He is able to utilize it as though it were an organic part of his body, and not just in ways that a real armwould work. For example, we see multiple occasions where hydraulics kick in to force the arm forward, but (as far as I can tell – please let me know if you noticed something I did not) there is no preceeding visible command. In fact, the only time that I can remember a gesture that may have been a physical cue was when he was forced to recalibrate following Black Widow’s EMP attack: he sort of spreads his fingers, and even that could simply be to check function rather than an actual command.
So how does the arm work? Obviously he has spacial recognition. This means that there has to be some form of sensation involved. However, it is reasonable to assume that he does not feel pain in that limb like the typical human would; imagine the intense pain he would feel in the following image otherwise?
Speaking of this scene: If the Winter Soldier’s arm could be unattached, it would have at that moment. The amount of force being exerted is more than enough to rip a normal human arm right out of its socket. In fact, this scene is pretty good proof that he’s had a great deal of his skeletal system replaced / reinforced. If they only reinforced the shoulder, the force would rip the entire altered section away from weaker natural bone. Therefore, he’s likely been modified along the entirely of his upper torso (from shoulder to shoulder) as well as down his rib cage. I’m not even going to get into his knee or toes in this scene…
My guess is that he can feel pressure, but nothing as complex or possibly incapacitating as pain/pleasure or hot/cold. Pressure is pretty important in his position: squeezing a trigger, not crushing things when he picks them up, etc.
In order to have any sensation, however, the arm has to be wired into his nervous system. So, somewhere in his shoulder they have connected the arm to not only his muscular and skeletal systems, but also the nervous. At some point Hydra would have had to reconstruct his entire shoulder, not only to deal with the original damage and atatching the new prosthetic, but to fortify the joint and surrounding bone in order to support the extra weight and stand up to the extreme amount of wear and tear.
Furthermore, the Winter Soldier is able to accomplish things with extreme precision. The scene where he catches Steve’s shield shows just how flawlessly he can use his arm. Being able to move that accurately would be impressive for a natural appendage, but considering that this is a prosthetic? Medically we’ve come a long way with modern prosthetics, to the point where the user can flex their fingers and grasp, but to accomplish anything complicated they must keep their eyes on the task at hand (that wasn’t meant as a pun, I swear). And yet, the Winter Soldier manages to snag the shield at exactly the right moment reflexively.
You can see a lot of examples showing how aware the Soldier is of the arm’s position in space. See how he is able to grab the weapon without looking in the following gif:
He doesn’t have to look or even focus, he just snags it as he walks by.
Alright, now let’s talk anatomy. Take a look at the above image to see where he metal meats skin, and then take a look at this link for some nifty muscle references. Look at how many muscles are involved in allowing an arm full range of motion here (hint: it’s a lot). In order for the arm to work so seamlessly, they’d have to attach it to (or replace) the trapezius, the pectorals major, the coracobrachialis, the subclavius, the pectorals minor, and the teres major in the front. In the back it’d be the trapezius, rhombi major, infraspinatus, and the teres major and minor. With as low as the metal bits are positioned, you’re looking at something that’s been locked in at the ribs, clavicle, and the scapula – unless they’ve completely replaced them, of course. Which is quite possible, considering how much abuse the Winter Soldier puts his body through.
There are plenty of other (unanswered) questions concerning the arm, such as how he’s able to move so well without chafing and how the the skin-to-metal boundary works. I have guesses for these, also, but I’ll save those for later. The message for now is: Bucky’s arm is staying right where it is without some major work.
Thanks to @100yearpatriot for the references and your magnificent brain.
Well… in at least one of the comics it does come off. I remember seeing the scene here on tumblr, somewhere. But yes, in the movie it wouldn’t make sense. Also kudos for detailed information! 🙂
(For some reason I couldn’t get it to reblog with this response, so I finally had to C&P)I’ve also read a comic – can’t remember which volume or anything – where Bucky mentions that Fury gifted him with technology that allowed him to go through airport security.
Which makes no sense because he was regularly going through security as the Winter Soldier in the past (they used him since he was American-passing). Of course, that’s not unusual for comics… There are just too many of them, spanning too many years, not to find incongruities.
On the Disney Wiki for CA: tWS they mention that his arm is detachable which, again, makes no sense when you take actual physiology into account. Not even “super neat Marvel science” would account for this. It just isn’t feasible on the human form. Not even on an enhanced human form.
Even after a significant amount of time considering his arm, my previous conclusions remain my head canon, and make the most sense as far as I can tell. My opinion is that he has neural control over the arm, much as a natural appendage would be. I would imagine that it’s a combination of the electric impulses given off by his brain and the muscular contractions from the surrounding shoulder-area.
This isn’t anything too out there. Prosthetics are already being made with some of this capability:
- The Verge: Watch a man control two robotic prosthetic arms with his mind
- c|net: Amputee simultaneously controls two prosthetic arms with his mind (more in-depth)
- Chalmers: Mind-controlled prosthetic arms that work in daily life are now a reality
- Science Daily: New prosthetic arm controlled by neural messages
Gah, this is just all too fascinating.
Tag: meta
Dear Avengers and Iron Man movieverse fandom,
I’ve noticed there’s fanfic in which poor Rhodey has been demoted three whole ranks. Here are some facts that may prove helpful when writing:
1) He is Lieutenant COLONEL James Rhodes.
2) He is addressed as “Colonel” or “Lieutenant Colonel” in conversation.
3) His pay grade is O-5.
4) Lieutenant Colonel is ranked above a Major (O-4) and below a full-bird Colonel (O-6).
5) Steve would salute Rhodey and Rhodey would return the salute, not the other way around. A Captain (O-3) is two ranks below a Lt Col.
5a) But Rhodey MAY salute Steve first, out of respect.
6) Rhodey is NOT a Lieutenant, which is one of the two LOWEST commissioned officer ranks in the Air Force, 2nd LT (O-1) and 1st LT (O-2).
7) His insignia is a silver oak leaf (or a black oak leaf if wearing desert cammo).
8) Based on his rank, he’s served approximately 10 to 16 years in the Air Force.
9) He was Air Force ROTC at MIT. (It’s implied, anyway, since Tony talks about them going on Spring Break together.)
Thanks,
Scrollsairobee:
Handy stuff to know!youneedtolookatthis:
And Carol Danvers /is/ a full-bird Colonel, so she ranks both Steve /and/ Rhodey.typewriterchan:
An addendum: one of the only legit and proper ways Rhodey would salute Steve first is if Steve is a recipient of the Congressional Medal of Honor. While it is not required by law or military regulation, there is a very strong cultural tradition in the services of rendering a salute to a CMOH winner as a sign of respect.(I don’t know if Steve is a CMOH recipient in the MCU, – I’d consider it fairly likely, though, given the events at the end of First Avenger. A lot of CMOH awards are posthumous.)
dixie-chicken:
I have reblogged all this before, but I have been told that Rhodey is full-bird Colonel by the end of IM3. I do not have the canon source for this, but he rescued the goddamned President with a 45, I’m shocked he’s not Secretary of fucking Defense by the end of IM3.typewriterchan:
Suddenly, fic thoughts of Rhodey being presented the CMOH (because let’s be honest, if there’s valor, it’s rescuing the President with a .45 and a polo shirt) and Steve being at the ceremony and possibly getting the privilege of putting it on him.wintercyan:
Steve is a Congressional Medal of Honor recipient! In CA:TFA, we see Senator Brandt presenting a “medal of valor” (no such medal actually exists in the US military) to Steve for rescuing the 107th POWs, except Steve doesn’t show up—however, in a deleted scene included on the DVD, we see this newspaper headline:
And in the following deleted scene, Colonel Philips hands Steve the medal, telling him he deserves it for embarrassing “a US senator in front of a room full of reporters and ten members of Parliament.”
So if deleted scenes are canon, Steve did get the CMoH in WW2.
Also, as it has been pointed out, “in accordance with DoD and Army policy [Steve, as MIA 1945-2011, would have been entitled] to automatic promotions. This at minimum means Steve is a full Colonel.”
So Steve is still the highest-ranking military member of the Avengers.
Could you tell me which plot elements in the MCU were original and which were adapted from 616? I was surprised to learn that things like Tony’s chest reactor and Jarvis as an AI didn’t come from the comics
Anon, that is a reference book waiting to be written. 😀 I’m gonna give you the very brief highlights as I think of them.
The location for the shoot was in Switzerland, around Sion. The shoot was divided in 2 groups: the aerial Unit for the helicopter plates shot on Panavision Genesis and a ground unit with a tracking vehicle mounted with 2 Arri Alexa cameras on an Ultimate Arm. Dan also took thousands of tiled photographs of the environments and rock textures on canon 1Ds in order to build digital versions of the landscape.
We built the train model with an engine, 5 carriages and a caboose with gun turrets. This was then rigged with controls for the speed, the amount of movement between carriages and the banking. A separate rig allowed the artists to generate train tracks procedurally and constrain the train to the tracks. All this was animated in autodesk maya 2011. The textures of the train had to be seen fairly close. This meant having to use 3 high resolution textures of a resolution of 8000 pixels per carriage. In total, the train had 9 textures per channel (colour, specular, reflection, dirt, displacement, bump). Then each carriages had variations in the textures. This accounted for a total of over 80 textures. The texturing was done in Photoshop and Mari from the Foundry. The look development, lighting and rendering was done by David Mucci with Pixar renderman using HDRI image based lighting and raytracing. DNeg’s team also modelled, textured, and rigged the cable and zipline. The digi-doubles of Captain America, Bucky and Gabe were used in some shots at a maximum of a quarter of the screen height in pixels. They were constrained to the cable rig in a hanging position and were animated to the correct speed to land on the train.
To plan the whole sequence, production provided DNeg with a post-viz animation cut done by the Third Floor.We then had to model the whole environment based on the layout of the shots to ensure geographic continuity in the sequence. This meant having to go from large vistas to hugging a cliff side when on top of the train. This was a challenge in itself as the resolution of the rock face needed to holdup to full screen with a train going past at 90 mph, therefore covering lots of ground in a single shot.
To this end myself and our in-house surveyor, Craig Crane, took our lidar out to Cheddar Gorge, surveyed a number of locations to produce a vast high resolution mesh. This was then handed over to Rhys Salcombe to be cleaned in 3D coat and textured in Mari using a projection technique. The photography was sourced from the rock faces corresponding to the lidar scans. Rhys also modeled and textured a couple of viaducts that we see at the start and end of the sequence. The entire landscape was recreated in maya, with the addition of trees generated in houdini. Finally, the snow was added by a procedural shader in prman. For the distant plates, we used a mix of matte painting projection and the background plates shot in the alps. Various layers of effects and atmospherics were also added by Howard Margolius and his FX team: snow falling, snow being kicked by the train, mist and clouds and one hero explosion when a hole gets blasted in the side of the train.
from CAPTAIN AMERICA: Charlie Noble – VFX Supervisor – Double Negative October 4th 2011
Hi Sam! I’ve been meaning to ask you this for a while, so here goes: What is your opinion on Young Avengers? I’m kinda thinking about starting it, and have heard good things about it, but am still kinda unsure.
Young Avengers has a kind of rocky publication history. A lot of times they’ve only existed as tie-ins to events, so we’re missing a lot of backstory for the characters (as far as I know we still don’t know how Billy and Teddy met, for example, which was actually a plot point in the last run). There are a couple of sketchy plotlines too, and I’m still annoyed that Eli was written off the team — we were told at the time that it was for a very good and specific reason, but since then, that reason has appeared to be “we wanted to replace him with a white dude”.
That all said, I’ve thoroughly enjoyed what I’ve read of Young Avengers. I’d give the Young Avengers And Runaways titles a miss, there’s way too many twee youths to keep them all straight (I am perhaps biased in that I think the Runaways are grindingly boring as comics, even though I like Victor and Molly). But the original Young Avengers run and the most recent one are both pretty awesome. Children’s Crusade is part of a larger story that may not be a hundred percent comprehensible in terms of plot, but it still has a lot of fun content, like Tommy having a race with Pietro and the “Clint fucked a doombot” scene.
But yeah, I think it’s worth finding the original run at least, and if you like that, you’ll enjoy the rest.
With the greatest respect, I’m going to have to disagree with you on Young Avengers, as someone who recently read it for the first time in order and loved it.
I think if you read the run without reading things like the Children’s Crusade and the crossovers with the Runaways in Civil War and Secret Invasion, you miss out on a lot. I found Children’s Crusade contained enough and was self explanatory enough that I didn’t need to have read any House of M to understand it. It’s really important origin stuff for Tommy and Billy – Billy especially, as it shows you what he’s capable of and adds weight to his storyline in Volume 2 (McKelvie/Gillen’s run). It also gives you grounding information for Prodigy’s depowered state when he arrives in vol. 2. (It also explains what happens to Cassie Lang, who otherwise would disappear without explanation.)
Likewise, the Runaways crossovers are vital for Teddy’s backstory and origins, and the Civil War run in particular gives Noh-Varr (another Vol. 2 character) his origin. I also just plain loved seeing the group interact with another group of powered kids under extraordinary circumstances. Given that Vol. 1 only has them interacting with adults and villains, that was really important to do, I think. The only run I’d say is unneccessary to read is the tie-in for Dark Reign. I actually actively disliked that. It was gratuitously violent, filled with all kinds of bigotry, and mainly focussed on a bunch of villain YA-wannabes and barely showed the actual YA team at all. Plus, when you haven’t read the major Dark Reign run, Osbourn’s team are SUPER-CONFUSING in terms of brand confusion. I wondered why Hawkeye and Iron Man were suddenly being such douchecanoes. You can probably skip the tie-in one-shot for Siege, too, since it’s tiny and just a fragment of a larger story. It doesn’t really add anything.
I’d read:
Young Avengers volume 1 #1-#8, Annual, #9-#12
Young Avengers/Runaways Civil War #1-#4
Young Avengers Presents #1-#6
Young Avengers/Runaways Secret Invasion #1-#3
Young Avengers Children’s Crusade #1-#9 + OneShot
Young Avengers Vol. 2 #1-#15
You and I also have different feelings on Eli Bradley. I wouldn’t go so far as to say I actively hate him, but there’s little love lost there, for me. The only think I liked about him was his backstory – basically, all the stuff about his grandfather and the history of racism in the super soldier program. I did like the way he called Cap onto the mat over that. Otherwise? He’s misogynistic. He’s a bully. He’s someone who wanted so hard to be superpowered he was willing to take backstreet drugs to do it, which is played for the sadness and pathos angle, but then, magically, he gets to be superpowered anyway. I see very little to like in him, very little that’s a positive portrayal for kids or POC, and very little that hasn’t been done before with other characters. He’s meant to be a strong black teen, but when it boils down to it, he’s all about his own manpain. Also, when he tries to date Kate Bishop? He spends an entire issue whining about being friendzoned. (Seriously, reread Young Avengers Presents #6.) Kate Bishop has VERY good reasons for being reluctant to progress into a sexual/romantic relationship with a man (see Young Avengers Annual from Vol 1.), and given the readership KNOWS this and the writers would have known this, it left a nasty taste in my mouth that we were meant to care more about Eli not getting his dick wet than to care about Kate’s healing process. I like David Alleyne (Prodigy) much better. He’s got an interesting (former) mutation, his relationships with the rest of the YA are positive, and he’s another queer character in the mix.
when Steve was in the hydra plane and he told Peggy “this is my choice” echoing her earlier words about Bucky’s death it made me think that Steve would’ve made more of an effort to escape had Bucky not fallen? and in TWS It’s like Steve has no reason to live other than saving the world, Like he’s /surviving/ but he’s not really living (and Natasha sees that) but then Bucky shows up and Steve doesn’t even have the will to survive anymore?
well, steve’s defining characteristic is always that he will do the right thing, no matter what it costs him personally. only this time, i think – and you’re right – he has less to live for, outside of the work. all his friends are dead, peggy carter will probably die very very soon, and he’s increasingly disillusioned with the organization he works for; not to mention – and this is probably one of my favourite parts that i somehow forgot to put in the review – he’s obviously suffering from some kind of survivor’s guilt and ptsd. that’s why, i think, natasha tries so hard to find him a date; it’s not about settling down, it’s not about having a good time or replacing peggy carter – she’s trying to find him an anchor. but the fundamental difference is that though natasha can reinvent herself over and over to survive, that she has the flexibility and willpower to look forward and not back, to keep moving and atone instead of staying back and risk losing herself – steve can’t do that? which is why the framing of this film, as him literally confronting the ghosts of his past – hydra, bucky – is a kind of healing process that works for him the way sam’s therapy sessions work for the others.
so in a sense, i don’t think he loses the will to survive once bucky shows up, i think he just – like his first face off with hydra – accepts the fact that he may have to die, in order to make things right. its interesting, because if you look at these two passages of dialogue:
SAM: what makes you happy?
STEVE: i don’t know.
and
NATASHA: you seem pretty chipper for a guy who found out he just died for nothing.
STEVE: i guess i just like to know who i’m fighting.
he needs a purpose. he’s not… happy, per se, by the end of this conversation with natasha, but he has a purpose. he knows what he has to do, he knows what is necessary, and so long as he can fulfil that purpose he is more or less, a functional human being. so when you put him on that falling hellcarrier with bucky; he’s not happy. he’s the furtherest thing from happy – but he has a purpose. he had a purpose when he made the decision to crash red skull’s plane, and he has a purpose here. between his life and stopping the bomb from hitting new york, between his life and bucky remembering – well. it’s a small price to pay.
and so, i don’t think he went out on to that plane looking to die. you’re right – he would probably have made more of an effort to survive if bucky had been alive still, but remember that peggy carter was alive and waiting on the other end of the radio, and that didn’t change his decision. certainly bucky’s death is what galvanizes his decision to go after hydra – compare ‘i don’t want to kill anyone. i just don’t like bullies’ with ‘i’m not going to stop until all of hydra is dead or captured.’ – but if bucky was alive, and the decision still came down to between him and the millions of people who would die?
the decision would still be the same.
with regards to bucky, i think the underlying idea here is that even from the very beginning, steve didn’t want to be useless. he didn’t want to be a liability on anyone, and he didn’t sign up for the war for glory or for vengeance (considering this was post pearl harbour) or because he wanted to kill nazis. he did it, very literally, because he felt a duty. because ‘there are men laying down their lives; i got no right to do any less than that.’ so the thought behind this, behind crashing the plane is – this is what happened to bucky. bucky died serving his country, crashing into the alps. he will have an empty casket because they never found a body – he will never have a decent paying job, he will never have a wife or children or grandchildren, he will never get to grow old with them and he will never get to come home from the war with steve. all he had and all he will ever have is that icy death in the alps; because he served his country. he laid down his life.
so steve’s not looking for death. when push comes to shove and a decision needs to be made – steve, well. he’s got no right to do any less than bucky.
IN THE MARVEL CINEMATIC UNIVERSE THE AO3 PROBABLY HAS A WHOLE SECTION ON THE CAPTAIN AMERICA ADVENTURE HOUR.
I BET PEOPLE GET INTO FIERCE FIGHTS OVER WHETHER IT COUNTS AS RPF OR FPF
Bucky/Steve was probably the Kirk/Spock of the MCU.
Also? You just know there were little girls who wanted to play and write fic where Betty Carver was a badass lady who worked to take down Hydra no matter what Cap did.
And said little girls were probably told they were doing Betty totally OOC and to stop making her into such a Mary Sue.
HEY SO LET’S TALK ABOUT THIS BECAUSE THIS IS MAYBE THE MOST IMPORTANT ADDITION TO ANY POST ON TUMBLR AND I’M INCLUDING THE PERSON WHO DEFENDED THE EYEBROWS-ON-MONA-LISA PERSON BY TALKING ABOUT PARENTS MEETING IN CLOWN CARS IN THIS ESTIMATION.
Because this is it. This is the meta-statement we’ve been waiting for. This is the explicit textual acknowledgment, within the Marvel universe, that some of the earlier beloved stories about favorite characters got things wrong. They misrepresented things. They played up the accomplishments of (say) the dashing straight white man, while minimizing the role of others.
This is the closest we’re probably ever going to get within the universe, rather than within the metatext, to the idea that women as “Mary Sues” is bullshit, and the real truth is that women were amazing all along and the text was biased towards a straight white male perspective.
This is the permission (not that we ever needed it, but good to be granted anyway) that we can look at early comics and movies and say “Oh, I see, this is the part where Pepper or Peggy or Betty or Jane or whoever saved the day but the story had to pretend it was the guy.” By making this explicit within the MCU, they are (perhaps inadvertently, IDK) giving the same permission to us in the real world.
I’m not saying this is actually what was intended, but I would argue this is a valid reading supported by the text.
This reading works really well on the Fantastic Four. The earliest stories tended to concentrate more on the three men, but Sue eventually got “powered up” so she was on par with them. This can easily be interpreted as the stories slowly having to catch up with what was actually happening.
YES.
Some poor comics editor in this ‘verse had to be like “Sir, we have a problem. People are finding these comics unbelievable.” “Is it the man on fire or the man made of rock?” “No, those are fine, obviously. It’s just- seeing how competent the Invisible Woman is on the streets of their hometowns is making them question the Invisible Girl in our stories.”
Can we just talk about Steve’s Apartment though?
I mean like, actually. So who do we think posed for that center drawing? Also, based on the rest of the concept art, it looks a lot more like Bucky is the one doing dishes, not Steve.
And like, The Bathtub Table. The Bathtub Table – set for two. Like, actually.
#I find it heartbreaking that this gifset seems to accurately show the recognition and horror in his expression when Steve’s words sink in#like he goes from blind rage to curiosity to recognition and horror when he realizes that it’s recognition#when he realizes that his mind is piecing things back together#but it might already be too late (via skinnvsteve)
There’s such cruelty in this moment. Steve is ready to die to try and save Bucky, but in saving him, Steve utterly destroys him. He shatters Bucky into pieces in the hopes that there will be something to salvage, and there’s very little kindness in that at all. It’s more savage than any of their physical fights, more brutal than Steve headbutting him or dislocating his arm or choking him out, which is why I think Steve saves it for the very last thing he says before he expects to die at Bucky’s hands. He doesn’t have the heart to say it before then.
this isn’t a fucking competition, bard.
I…I recognize the joke, but these are totally different kinds of bows, each with its own benefits and suited to its user.
Bard’s using a longbow.
- Longbows are awesome and take a fuckton of regular practice to use, because the muscle strain required to be a longbowman(/woman) actually deforms the arms and back of the user.
- “Bard the Bowman” is still known by that sobriquet even though he’s low status, his family’s life and profession changed when the dragon attacked. Why would he be called that, if not that he’s still in regular practice and people see him using the thing over and over and over?
- Longbows are less-damaged by damp than composites, being made of once single piece of wood rather than layers of material, which is handy if one lives in the middle of a freaking lake.
- The longbow changed the face of warfare in real life, esp. for England. They’re effective killing machines over long distance, even against armored enemies.
- Conclusion: Bard’s a tank-muscled distance shot used to fighting with good sightlines.
Legolas and Tauriel use recurve bows, albeit in different styles.
- Legolas’ looks like a Turkish bow, though I don’t recall seeing him use a thumb draw (which is not mandatory if you’ve got super strong elf-fingers, I guess).
- Tauriel’s looks to be a Scythian composite bow by the shape.
- Composite recurve bows are much easier to use in confined spaces and at odd angles.
- They have been historically used by folks who specialize in archer tricks like multiple arrow shots (a thing we have seen Legolas do).
- Because of the curves, composites pack heavy draw weight (the factor that determines with what force, i.e. how fast and far, the arrow will travel) into limited space.
- Short draw (the distance you have to pull back the arrow to shoot it) means a quicker release time and quicker time to get your next arrow on the string.
- Legolas and Tauriel fight in a forest, not know for long sight lines or easy travel, nor for enemies who can be seen coming. They need weapons that won’t be getting caught on a bush at an inopportune time. Likewise, you see fewer spears and longswords among the elves of the Greenwood.
- Conclusion: Legolas and Tauriel are guerrilla fighters from a heavily-forested territory and their weapons reflect that.
Kili also uses a composite recurve bow.
- For practical purposes, note that Kili has significantly shorter arms than any of the other archers here mentioned. Long draws, like on Bard’s longbow, are not feasible and that means he’s not going to get the power he is capable of producing.
- Dwarves are fucking strong, all right? That wee little bow looks very like the Mongolian horse-bow in size and shape that my friend used with a draw weight of 55 lbs. (I’m not a weakling and I can draw 35 for a decent length of time when in practice). Kili’s could easily be upwards of 75-100 lbs.
- Kili’s a hunter. Likely, his main concern with a bow (when not following his uncle on an inadvisable quest) is the procurement of dinner for his family. To do that with a bow you need to be very quiet or very quick on the draw. Dwarves are not known for being super-quiet, though I believe I remember something about Fili and Kili being better at that than is typical.
- Anything that can kill a deer can probably kill a person (or an orc). That little horse-bow can easily kill or maim.
- Conclusion: Kili is a hunter. He uses a bow that allows for the production of a lot of power at short notice and is suited to his size and strength.
Bigger is not always most effective. Your medieval weaponry rant has concluded for the day, unless someone wants to talk to me about swords.
knitting in the dark 